Getting the VH-12 to work properly with eDRUMin

[Rob]

The VH-12 is a bit of an oddball in terms of hihat controllers and does not play well with eDRUMin without making some adjustments in the control application.

1. From the pedal editor, click on the hihat icon to disable pedal sense.

hihat.png (13.66 KiB) Viewed 8457 times

2. Change the polarity control from 'auto' to 'Roland'.

polarity.png (9.49 KiB) Viewed 8457 times

3. Calibrate, and use the mouse to manually adjust the calibration range so that the green bar looks something like what is shown below:

calibr.png (6.6 KiB) Viewed 8457 times

[hang12]

So I initially had the recent problems with the Roland VH-12 trying to do an eDRUMin set-up and calibration. If you’re at all familiar with the VH-12 into the TD-20, the initial prompt in the TD-20 screen, after a TD-20 factory reset, is to first set up the VH-12 ‘offset’. For those who are dealing with the VH-12 and eDRUMin, I’ll elaborate.

The TD-20 manual description of the offset is "The bigger the value the wider the opening extent is"

Unlike the Roland FD-7 HH pedal that came with the TD-10 kit, the VH-12 requires an ‘offset’ measurement, whereas the FD series of HH pedals has no ‘offset’ parameter available on the TD-20 HH setup screen. Using a multi-meter, the FD-7 has linear resistance, whereas with the VH-12, resistance is an initially non-linear (‘open’ and then somewhat logarithmic) then eventually a linear resistance.
So the non-linear is the ’offset’ portion of the pedal, and then - it becomes linear. The eDRUMin calibration gets a bit confused by this (as it expects full linearity), and so once you’re in calibration mode for the VH-12, you must tweak the linear end points with the mouse for the linear portion, then toggle off the ‘calibration’.
The resulting eDRUMin calibration ‘band’ that works for the linear output portion of my VH-12 covers a narrow range of maybe 25 to 50 (if it was scaled 0-100, left to right). On the recent 1.4 build 22, if I had the eDRUMin Control app still booted, the calibration band still displays end points when Calibration is re-entered, but if the Control app is exited and you re-visit this calibration, you have to start from scratch (no band is visible). Rob said he thought this was visual was corrected - it might be worth a re-visit to check on the next builds.

My VH-12 has an offset value of ‘-21’ on the TD-20, which doesn’t matter to the eDRUMin, but I thought I’d mention it for reference sake. It was strange trying to get this to work, because it worked perfectly directly hooked to the TD-20, but was all sorts of not working with the eDRUMin.

While talking VH-12, something on the TD-20 but not supported yet on the eDRUMin is the pedal down, extra squeezed closed HH, where the output value changes the MIDI notes from 46 and 26, to 42 and 22 respectively. I’m still only working on the setup with the TD-20 as my sound source, but I haven’t yet checked out whether this is a supported feature in SD3, which I will be embracing after the eDRUMin>TD-20 is all sussed out.

[Martin]

First, the PDF manual for eDRUMin10 show a VH12 link, but it does not link when hovered on like a link so I am here hoping to find answers here that might help others as well.

edrumin10-vh12-manual-link.PNG (32.9 KiB) Viewed 8418 times

I don't entirely follow the first or second post above. I watched the vh10 and 13 videos, the latter was applicable to me w a vh12, but still a little lost.

My calibration looks different than the video and the first post above. My red line moves all the way to the right when I release. The image below is a screen shot while pressing the pedal.

edrumin10-vh12.PNG (371.66 KiB) Viewed 8418 times

I can't seem to get edge notes either, just bow, only closed F#1.

Lastly, is it me or is the midi map off? Isn't Roland similar to General MIDI, but the HH is:

44 hh pedal (G#1) [assuming closed chick sample sound)
46 bow open (A#1) [assuming open ride-like sample sound]
42 hh closed (F#1) [assuming closed tight sample sound; eDRUMin10 is only detecting this for me, I would think I would get only A#1 until closed]
26 hh edge open (D0) [assuming barely/slightly open hh sample sound]

I don't see "E2 Splash" per eDRUMin Control...? [I would think a splash would be activated upon quick chick and release to get A#1 ride-like sound]

I can move samples around easy enough in Ableton, but I usually use TD25/50 note map.

IMG_2485.jpg (1.33 MiB) Viewed 8417 times

^tom 4 might be different than Roland or GMIDI, and per1,2,3, but rest should be correct.

Thoughts?

[Rob]

First, the PDF manual for eDRUMin10 show a VH12 link, but it does not link when hovered on like a link so I am here hoping to find answers here that might help others as well.

I fixed the link in the manual. Thanks.

Here are some note:
Currently, eDRUMin does not change the HH notes it sends based on the position of the hihat pedal. For example, if the trigger input for your hihat is set to send note 46 when you strike the bow, it will always send note 46. This isn't how Roland does things (as I'm sure you are aware) and so you might see troubles if trying to trigger on a Roland module. However, VSTs like Superior Drummer, BFD, and Addictive Drums will not have this problem assuming you are using their default presets. They use CC4 to determine what level of openness and ultimately what note to play.

Looking at your screenshot, I can see that you need to increase the gain control to about 30. If you don't, the 'chck' note is not going to have enough velocity to properly choke the hihat cymbal.

I understand that setting up a VH-12 is a bit tedious, but I assure you will get good results. Hopefully in a couple months' time I will have presets for hihat controllers, and that will take out a lot of the steps in settings things up.

[Martin]

I am still having troubles seeing the link or getting it to work after refreshing download page and trying the link in the manual again. What is the link? Just to page 31? Some, but not much info there for VH12.

I'm still only getting 2 notes(pedal and bow), and no splash note (or the same 2 at once trigger- inconsistently). I tried to dial the splash threshold, but still not triggering a splash note, just pedal and bow on most, but not all, splash foot actions.

I can't seem to get separate bow and edge notes on the hh cymbal, just bow. The bow does seem to have a second sound, but its not triggering another note, or the edge at all from what I can see in the Controller and in Ableton.

I'd like to bypass SD3 or BFD and just use Ableton for the HH. Thoughts on that route?

[Rob]

I am still having troubles seeing the link or getting it to work after refreshing download page and trying the link in the manual again. What is the link? Just to page 31? Some, but not much info there for VH12.

Yes, it just links to page 31. I just uploaded the updated manual.

I'm still only getting 2 notes(pedal and bow), and no splash note (or the same 2 at once trigger- inconsistently). I tried to dial the splash threshold, but still not triggering a splash note, just pedal and bow on most, but not all, splash foot actions.

Don't bother with the splash for now. When you press the pedal down quickly, you should be getting the 'pedal' note. If you are also getting the 'bow' note, that's because the settings for your hihat pedal are not configured well. As I said in my last post, make sure the 'gain' setting for the pedal is around 30 and keep the 'xtalk' at around 50. When you close the hihat pedal, the cymbals on the VH-12 are going to bang together and that will cause it to trigger the bow. By increasing the gain and the xtalk control for the hihat pedal, the device will apply more xtalk cancellation on the hihat cymbal and filter out those 'bow' mistriggers.

gain.png (10.45 KiB) Viewed 8407 times

I can't seem to get separate bow and edge notes on the hh cymbal, just bow. The bow does seem to have a second sound, but its not triggering another note, or the edge at all from what I can see in the Controller and in Ableton.

For the VH-12 cymbal, just load the preset for the VH-13 and that will likely work very well. Can you attaching a screenshot for your VH-12 cymbal trigger settings?

I'd like to bypass SD3 or BFD and just use Ableton for the HH. Thoughts on that route?

Not not sure what you mean here.

[Martin]

Thanks.

I'm trying to NOT use a VST, just Ableton drum rack with hh samples at right trigger/pad note in the Ableton drum rack. Only two notes are seen/detected at this time, pedal/close, and bow (which is a ride-like sample for me at the moment). I was having mediocre success with another module triggering 4 samples that changed with the pedal from open to semi-closed to tightly closed. Was hoping eDRUMin would fair better. So far eDRUMin has been so much easier, intuitive, and forgiving to set...took me 5 minutes, not 5 hours, on my snares (mesh w intrigg piezo).

Moved gain to 30, x talk 50, it's better, but still getting random bow samples. Seems 90% fine, mostly get chick/close pedal note. On occasion a bow note, which seems to come if I go slow, or soft, or soft and slow if not closing from fully opened position, and also on fast closure if not from fully opened. On fast closure from fully opened it seems fine enough.

Starting to wonder if my hh cymbal is bunk, but want to rule out settings first.

cymbal settings, vh13 after calibration:
bow:

edrumin10-vh12bow.PNG (289.03 KiB) Viewed 8399 times

edge:

edrumin10-vh12edge.PNG (246.14 KiB) Viewed 8399 times

Sounds like rapid choppy static if I hit edge, but only bow note registers, no edge note. The note on clean bow strike is clean.

in action on closed edge:

IMG-2494.jpg (983.47 KiB) Viewed 8399 times

[hang12]

Sorry - I've been off-line, playing. Enjoying the eDRUMins!
I've managed to get the VH-12 working well. Attached are my foot and pad settings - I'm interfacing it to a TD-20. Can't guarantee my settings will be applicable but hopefully maybe(?)
Note that the VH-12 manual states (on page 9) that the optimal gap between the upper and lower pads is 10mm (3/8"). I had a very hard time getting the basic 'pedal' to trigger every time, and 'splash' to work at all until I increased the gap to 1/2", to give more force to the basic foot down 'clomp' motion. Made a big difference after this adjustment - it might be better with more gap. Still adjusting things but it's working well.
Hope this helps. It's not 'perfect' but I'm pretty happy with it. Not sure that the Fast Stepping fix or CConly on the pedal work - I'm still randomly trying out things, and sometimes leave a few things engaged that maybe don't make a difference.
And I'm happy to report that I have two eDRUMin 10's working with one TD-20 and one TD-10 (both expanded) and it's going well - like 24 Roland pad type triggers (ok one old Yamaha cymbal too) and all responding really well with -minimal- crosstalk. Still some tweaking to do, i.e. I'm not totally happy with the PD-125 snare/attached BT-1 combo yet, but it's really close.
Next hook-up phase is SD3. I wanted to get the Roland stuff working well first, and with the eDRUMin it is much better than only Roland.

[Rob]

happy with the PD-125 snare/attached BT-1 combo yet, but it's really close.

Agreed. I need to add a special form of crosstalk cancelation for this. One thing that's not so obvious is to make sure the BT-1 scan time is about 0.5ms longer than the PD-125. Here are my settings for the BT-1. At some point I'll make a proper post on this topic.

BT-1.png (68.97 KiB) Viewed 8376 times

[hang12]

Ok I've been working on this some more. I made some mistakes - like getting a few things backwards (oops) - but I think these settings will work better if you have a VH-12 and are trying to control a TD-20 (with the eDRUMin of course).

Unfortunately re-mapping the tightly closed HH cymbal (where the mappings switch from 46 and 26 to 42 and 22 respectively) is not supported by eDRUMin yet, as far as I know...
Switching this on the TD-20 for just 46 and 26 is not done globally, but on a per patch (preset) basis, ugh.
So - on the TD-20 under Instrument>Control>MIDI>HH MIDI the top to bottom order is normally 46 42 26 22 44 -
to match the eDRUMin, change the order to 46 46 26 26 44.

(edit from yesterday's post)
The bow (shown) and edge (not shown) curves are similar. For now everything is reactive and snappy.
I tweaked the foot pedal settings - the pedal release splash is now working well and is consistent.
I loaded the newly released 1.4.0 and performed firmware updates as well on both eDRUMin10's. Everything seems good!