Loss of bell, choke, and edge on an ATV cymbal

[Retro Rambler]

Hi Rob and all,
I seem to have done something non-intelligent somehow, or maybe just suffered a cymbal going bad, but I'm not sure what I would have done to cause this. But on one of my 14" ATV crash cymbals, connected through one of the roland-to-yamaha 3 zone adapters I wired up (per tutorial over at vdrums), after updating firmware on edrumin it was (still) connected to -- when I went back in to check/set up the inputs again I had the exclamation point on that edrumin input. (this was a spring 2020 era ED4) and a compatiblity warning.

Up front: I'm not asking about any way the edrumin could have caused this for any sort of "blaming edrumin now i want you to replace my cymbal" or anything like that -- really -- I'm not like that. I just want to know if anything i could have done, or not done, could have led to this so that it can be pinpointed -- and perhaps documented for everyone else as well if it isn't already -- so I can make sure to avoid doing it again in the future.


To be honest I am not 100% sure what I did after seeing that warning in the edrumin control software for that port, but I am pretty sure in the process I did end up toggling some settings and disconnecting and reconnecting the cable.

In any case, now I can no longer detect any bell or edge hits, everything comes in as a bow hit regardless of where hitting on the cymbal, and choke/mute isn't working either.

I've tried swapping 3-zone adapters, with another that's working fine, swapping the cable, and even running two separate cables to adjacent above/below ports on an ED10 (completely different unit than the ED4 the cymbal has been used on previously) and setting it to roland 3-zone cymbal, it makes no difference. It's like the bell and edge inputs as well as choke no longer work on this cymbal. It does still work as a basic crash cymbal (every hit lights up the BOW signal on connected edrumin port) - but I'd like to get the rest working again if possible. This is the only one I've noticed this with (so far).

Previous to this all ride and crash cymbals have been connected through those 3-zone adapters and worked great. but something seems to have happened to this one.

In a nutshell my setup has not gotten a lot of play time lately, my job was hectic and and some other issues as well, but a few weeks ago I started working on a new temporary system connected to the edrumins. I updated the firmware and software to current levels on the edrumins, it would have been whatever was current in early 2022 previously.

Does this sound like anything that could, perhaps, be the result of an unfortunate thing done in the process of updating the firmware on the ED4 this cymbal was plugged into at the time, or perhaps a series of 2 or more things done?

I did not remove any of the items plugged into the 4 phono ports of this ED4 (or any of the EDx's) when updating the firmware on the EDx's, only the "usual" USB cable that goes into a powered USB2.0 hub that all the EDx's are plugged into, and ran a separate USB2 cable straight from the EDx to a port directly on the PC while updating, then after complete, closed the edrumin control and pulled the "update" cable and plugged the hub-based one back in, for each of the 5 ED's I have on the hub. (and am accustomed to having to always have one of the 5 unplugged that needs no settings changed so the other 4 can appear in the UI)

I'm wondering if perhaps not unplugging the devices from EDx's before issuing first attempt to reset them back to factory defaults could have caused a problem, if not pulling the 3-zone yam adapter off the input before doing the reset could have led to that EDx not knowing it was there (because I did the reset to factory default first instead of unplugging the 3-zone adapter(s) first, then reset to factory defaults, and a subsequent insert of the 3-zone adapter allowing the ED4 to properly detect/notice the 10K resistor there?

In any case, if any of this sounds familiar I wonder if you could share whatever DO or DON'T I should have followed so I don't make the same mistake again.

Also, if there is anything you think might be worth trying to get those functions back on the cymbal, I'd appreciate any advice anyone might have. I did find a page on the net that shows some info about disassembling ATV e-cymbals and doing a couple of common service things to them:

https://www.creepingfog.com/sean/atv-cymbal/index.html

That might even be what I'm dealing with. Not sure yet. I'm not afraid to take the cymbal apart, looks pretty straightforward at least for those parts of the job (whatever pressure switch setup these have doesnt seem to be covered but probably similar). I've got extra piezos etc.

Anyway, thanks all for any advice/ideas. If I end up replacing this cymbal then I'll definitely scavenge this one to figure out how to disassemble the top to get to the pressure switch setup if the info in the other page above isn't enough to help, unless somebody already knows about any of that info, and put something up somewhere to share the info -- It's definitely out of warranty now.

But if there is something I should definitely make sure I do, like unplug any devices from EDx ports before I update the firmware, or before I do a reset to factory defaults (or maybe just even a reset on a single port) -- please let me know. I hope I don't do something like this again. Thanks.

[Rob]

Don't worry. Your devices are fine and I'm sure it's something small.

I've tried swapping 3-zone adapters, with another that's working fine, swapping the cable, and even running two separate cables to adjacent above/below ports on an ED10 (completely different unit than the ED4 the cymbal has been used on previously) and setting it to roland 3-zone cymbal, it makes no difference.

You should of course be setting it to Yamaha 3-Zone cymbal pad type.

If you can't resolve the issue after getting this reply, tell me the firmware version you updated to and please include a screenshot of your settings for the cymbal.

And, assuming you are not using an older version of the Control Application / firmware, then I suggest disabling the compatibility check from the device settings.

Device Settings

How about your cables? There are all TRS (stereo) cables?

The input is set to stereo?

[Retro Rambler]

Thanks Rob for the quick response.

I've been using the Yamaha 3-zone cymbal generally except for when I was testing with using 2 cables (1 edge, 1 bell), for that i set the main one to roland 3 zone in that case on port 5 and and the bell/cup input on port 6. Using Drum-tech stereo cables and those inputs are set to stereo mode vs. mono or dual split.

The device page for this ED10 i have been testing with since moving this cymbal off of the "RED" ED4 shows it is ED10R2, firmware version 2.3.2.31, and the control software is also 2.3.2 build 31.

I just tried turning Compatibility Check off on this ED10R2, will try that for a bit and if I can't figure it out I'll get screenshots of the settings for the port(s) I'm testing with on the ED10R2 as well as the usual ED4 I have been using this cymbal with.

Thanks!

[Retro Rambler]

OK, I tried setting both the ED4 i was originally using this cymbal with, and the ED10R2 I had moved it to for testing, to compatibility checking OFF.

These are screen shots of the firmware, device settings, and port settings for each of these EDx devices.

The ED4:




The ED10R2:




One setting I couldn't really capture was that the Swap Edge/Bell setting was off in both cases. (since I know the 3-zone adapters are wired in such a way that the Bell/Cup jack of cymbal is connected to the ring of the cable that doesn't have the 10K resistor wired in. I did try both ways though, no difference.

Also the cymbal seems to work same way when I have it plugged up using 2 cables and set to Roland 3 zone ride mode as well.

no matter where I hit on the cymbal -- bell, bow, or edge -- it always registers only on bow. I never see edge or bell light up, and grabbing the edge of the cymbal (usual mute) doesn't work.

PS all cables used are stereo Drum-Tec cables

Just let me know if there's any other info you need and I'll get it to you!

Thanks!
Retro

[Rob]

I started rereading your post and something jumped out at me:

But on one of my 14" ATV crash cymbals

You have more than one? And the others are working fine I assume? Surely that gives you a proper avenue for testing?

Regards,
Rob

[Retro Rambler]

Yes, apologize for the many words. I do only have one 14" but two 16" ones, which do work in 3 zone mode fine as do the 18" ones. So I can rule out cable, edrumin ports etc. with those and have been working on that.

I'm leaning towards the cymbal is bad now, vs. an edrumin port, but will continue testing to rule parts of the equation out before banging gavel on that.

(I am PRETTY sure) All ATV's are 3-zone cymbals but i've only been using the crash-sized and ride-sized ones 3 zone, the splashes and chinas are only hooked up as 2-zone.

I guess the bottom line of my question was, can you think of a combination of edrumin ED4 hardware rev (mine were purchased in spring 2020 and apparently identify just as ED4 per screenshots), 3 zone adapter, cable, etc. and possible sequence of events -- possibly including updating the firmare to the newer version from whatever was current in early 2022 without unplugging any pads/cymbals plugged into it including a yam 3-zone configured cymbal-- and getting the compatibility warning exclamation point in the process after updating - where this could possibly lead to damaging the cymbal and/or that port on the edrumin?

If so, please let me know what you think could cause that so I can make sure I don't ever do it again.

It appears, but I am not certain yet (have to try with more known good things) that the port 4 on the ED4 "RED" I had this cymbal plugged into originally with a 3-zone adapter does not want to support 3 zone yamaha anymore either, but I have some more testing to do before I can be certain of that.

[Retro Rambler]

Also, if I temporarily set a pair of ports to metal 3-drum cymbal mode and toggled betwen the piezo and switch mode that has, could that lead to damaging the cymbal and/or port? I tried a few different things in the process of troubleshooting.

This also makes me wonder, is the compatibility checker something that is safer for me to leave on or turn off?

Thanks!
Retro

[Rob]

eDRUMin devices are incapable of damaging your cymbals. I don't know of any combination of settings that could cause a problem. You have the pads, and you have the devices. You should be able to figure out what's going on.

[Retro Rambler]

OK. Thanks Rob. Like I said at beginning I wasn't trying to find out because I wanted to blame an edrumin and then start fussing about replacement or anything, just if you thought it was a possibility, and how if so, so I could make sure I "don't do that!"

I've validated the original ED4 port 4 is good (not damaged) by putting one of the other cymbals I use as 3-zone and its connected 3-zone adapter on that port, so that's good to know. Will rule out other parts of the equation (cable, 3-zone adapter) as well but but I've already tried moving this original cymbal to other EDx's and the problem moves with it, so pretty sure the cymbal is bad. Will know for sure what else is acting up as I move through the components involved.

Thanks Rob.

So overall, would you recommend using or not using compatibility checker? It's to help indicate something is wrong, right?

I did also find in the manual where it's recommended to unplug the cable from the EDx port whenever changing pads.

Thanks.

[Retro Rambler]

That link I posted in first post on this thread about disassembling the ATV cymbals and correcting two types of connection problems that sounds like could be common with these might be good info for me, will probably give it a try or at least put a meter on some things to see what I can figure out. May just be a bad connection.