Rim Trigger question

[Mr_Bluesguy]

Hi Rob
I'm having a small issue with rim triggering I hope you can shed some light on.

The scenario: DIY Snare with 4 side triggers consisting of 20mm piezos with .5” thick foam discs, not cones. The single rim trigger is an experimental unconventional mount designed to maximize rim sensitivity. The pad select is 3 cone trigger in stereo mode. Head, rimshot and sidestick separation is wide and consistent.

Side triggers and rim trigger are very sensitive and run hot, but not excessively so. At gain setting of 1, a solid center hit will drive the meter to about 80% of max, rim trigger does the same, so no issues there.

Head triggering is very consistent and sensitive, but I don't understand the rim trigger behavior. A very soft hit on the rim will drive the meter to maybe 10 to 30% of the meter range, and the graph of the hit clearly shows the response is well above the threshold, but no sound is triggered. A comparable force strike on the head does yield a very soft hit center sound. So, sufficient rim signal is apparently being generated to produce a sound, but there is no response until harder hits occur. Its kind of a dead zone.

If I increase the gain to approximately 3 or above, a soft hit on the rim does produce the sidestick sound, but of course all normal force hits on both head and rim are driven into clipping. This is all independent of velocity curve settings for the rim trigger. Any insights?

Thanks in advance

[Rob]

The head sensor does all the work. Hit detection and velocity for all articulations is done with the head sensor. The rim sensor is just used to determine with articulation to trigger.

[Mr_Bluesguy]

That's good info to have. I had a fundamental misunderstanding of how it works. So, if I understand it correctly, for a sidestick sound the head trigger must also be triggered adequately in addition to the rim sensor, and it kind of looks to me like the head trigger must have signal approximately 10% or more up the trigger voltage scale to trigger a sound, but can't exceed the level of the rim trigger. Is that correct? Is it also safe to assume that it works the same way with the bell trigger for the dual zone metal cymbal? That is, the bow trigger does all the work and the bell trigger signal just indicates the bell articulation to be played?

[fg61]

The head sensor does all the work. Hit detection and velocity for all articulations is done with the head sensor. The rim sensor is just used to determine with articulation to trigger.

Hi Rob, I know its a quite old post but I'm trying to find a solution to my problem and have found this thread.
So my problem is that I built a 13" DIY A2E snare using a 13" Halo Trigger from Drone Trigger System. It's a one side trigger solution which also has a few dampening foam cones and a rim piezo assembled on a separate holder piece. I use a Roland BT for sidestick notes so the rim is used only for rimshots.
The problem is that the rim signal is way too hot causing I only have rim signals in the red range with max velocity. I tried to use some resistors in series with the piezo in order to attenuate the rim signal, but it not really helped.
Now, finding your sentences quoted above it seems this problem needs a different approach. If I understand well, the velocity of the rimshot is determined by the head sensor, not the rim sensor. Am I right?
If yes, maybe I need to attenuate the signal of the head piezo and to use the new separate rim gain control of the CA.

I would really appreciate your thoughts regarding this.

[fg61]

Hi Rob, any thoughts?

[Rob]

Your logic sounds fine. Have you tried it? Version 2.3.2 allows you to set independent gains for the rim sensor which should help in situations where the signal from the rim sensor is extremely hot.

[fg61]

I think I am a little confused now.

"Version 2.3.2 allows you to set independent gains for the rim sensor which should help in situations where the signal from the rim sensor is extremely hot."
But you have also written this:
"The rim sensor is just used to determine with articulation to trigger."
If I understand well it means that the signal of the rim sensor has no effect on the velocity of the rim shot.

So how can I control the velocity of the rimshot? As you have written, the independent gain setting option sets the signal of the rim sensor which has no effect on the velocity of the rimshot.

The gain meter has two bars, the left one for the head gain, the right one for what? The rim sensor gain or the rimshot gain?

Maybe I am totally misunderstood something here.

[Rob]

Sorry, my initial statement is correct. The rim sensor is not used in velocity detection. You said that "the problem is that the rim signal is way too hot" and I was simply offering you a solution to reduce your rim sensor signal strength.

Ultimately if you want to reduce the volume of the rimshots, you should turn down the rimshot scaler, but I assume you would have tried that very obvious solution before modifying the electronics in your pad.

Regards,
Rob