Erratic positional sensing on edrumin 10, reliable on edrumin 4

[natsch]

Hi Rob,

unfortunately, I have difficulties setting up my snare (with a r-drums rts trigger) on my new ED10R2.
The triggering itself is working quite well but positional sensing isn't working as exptected. On a single stroke roll on the exact center of the pad approx. every 5th hit is registered as edge hit. Played around with different settings, head tensions, mesh heads, cone height but no relevant improvements.

Interestingly, when hooking up the pad to one of my existing ED4R4 (bought in November last year) positional sensing is working reliably, no false edge hits at all (exact same trigger settings and cable).
What I observed on the ED10 is that the transient for certain hits looks quite different to usual hits (I've attached one screenshot). There are multiple short spikes in the scan window instead of one or two longer round curves. I don't know if that is normal but I couldn't observe such transients on the ED4.

As the pad is on the hotter side, I also tried to add a 5k and 10k resistor to the head signal. While it improved the performance of positional sensing itself, the erratic edge hits didn't vanish on the ED10.

I then also tested my Yamaha PCY175 on both devices and could also observe a more consistent positional sensing behaviour on the ED4 (and those differences in some of the transients) but it's still usable on the ED10.

Do you have any idea what the problem on the ED10 could be?
Both devices are running with the same latest firmware version (2.3.0.2).

Thanks

[natsch]

I've also attached a screenshot with my current pad settings (working very good on the ED4) as the one in the initial post was made during my experiments.

[Rob]

I'll do my own tests tomorrow and get back to you. Thanks for the screenshots.

My first guess is that the device is starting the scan halfway through the first part of the transient. Can you try increasing your threshold a little bit?

[natsch]

Thanks for your answer.

I've tried several higher thresh values, but unfortunately no changes in the behaviour.

[Rob]

Using the MIDI monitor and even just looking closely at the scrolling view, when using the ED10, do you see 2 hits coming through when the positional sensing goes awry?

[natsch]

Do you refer to double triggering? If so, I didn't encounter double trigger problems so far but I'll have to check later when I have more time to troubleshoot.

But as it seems, it could be related to USB connection issuees. When I directly connect my ED4 to the computer, it shows the same behaviour as the ED10. But when connected to the ED10 host port, positional sensing is working consistently without edge hits.
I checked all the different USB ports, a USB hub in between and a USB extender cable but had no luck yet.

I'll report back when I have more time to do further tests.

[Rob]

I'm pretty sure the issue you are having is with high frequency content coming in around 4.5 ms into the transient. That content is significantly higher amplitude than the first 3ms of the transient. When that happens, the eDRUMin will restart the scan because it thinks that it's seeing a flam. I can possibly add some checks to make it more difficult to detect the flam, but perhaps you should look at your pad contraction to see what is rattling. This is a DIY pad I assume?

[JohnM]

My experience with a recent snare drum build, using RTS style trigger construction.

I found the rim sensor was over sensitive. Playing towards the edge of the head would trigger a rim response. I put this down to the rigidity of the solid aluminium rods used to connect the shell/lugs to the centre mounted rim sensor...

IMG_1349.jpg (267.62 KiB) Viewed 1375 times

I added a 500k potentiometer between the rim sensor and ring terminal on the TRS socket. While playing near the edge of the head, I rotated the pot (increasing resistance) until all rim hits were eliminated.

IMG_1358.jpg (268.37 KiB) Viewed 1375 times

Underside of rim sensor mounting plate with pot adjuster arrowed...

IMG_1361.jpg (280.86 KiB) Viewed 1375 times

From that point, the biggest leap in PS performance was following Rob's recommendation to use a 2-ply mesh head. I'd originally fitted a 3-ply head. PS worked but response across the head wasn't consistent. As soon as I switched to a Roland MH2 Powerply head, PS works superbly.

From your screenshots, Scan Time with the eDRUMin10 is much longer than the eDRUMin4. Aim for something much closer to 2.3ms.

Based on my experience, I got PS working great once I dialled down sensitivity of the rim sensor, fitted the 2-ply head and set scan time as per Rob's recommendations in the manual.

[natsch]

Thanks for your responses.

I couldn't find a way yet to have a consistent positional sensing response in the edrumin control application for a directly connected device (ED10 or E4 doesn't matter). But interestingly, I found out that if the edrumin control application isn't running, none of the awkward behaviour occurs when triggering superior drummer 3. But in the moment I start edrumin control again, playing the snare is unbearable. Sometimes, when closing the app this "state" is stuck but turning the ED10 off and on again restores normal behaviour.

So to summarize:
* A directly connected ED10 or ED4 (via USB) shows erratic positional sensing in the edrumin control app and an unusable response in superior drummer 3.
* When connecting the ED4 to the ED10 and using the snare on the ED4, everything is working as expected.
* When connecting the snare to any of the devices and have the edrumin control app closed, the response in superior drummer 3 is perfect.

I've confirmed the positional sensing response in the e-drum settings in superior drummer 3 and it is near perfect now.

I don't know if it has something to do with the linux version (I'm running on ubuntu studio 23.04) or it just occurs on my specific setup, but connected to a windows notebook I don't see any of this awkward behaviour in the edrumin control app, regardless of how I connect the devices.
So, for now I will do the pad settings on the windows notebook and only the playing on the linux setup. While I generally try to avoid windows, I'm perfectly fine with this workaround and very satisfied with the performance of my e-drum setup.

@JohnM I highly appreciate sharing your experience. While the rim sensor on my pad is also quite sensitive, I didn't have any problems to configure a perfect separation between head, sidestick and rimshots with the excellent controls of the edrumin control app. And I'm also using a 2-ply head (drum-tec design) for the exact same reason. With the 10k resistor added to the head signal I'm fully satisfied with the PS response in superior drummer 3 (the first screenshot was just to show the odd transient, the second screenshot to show the settings I'm using on both devices).

[Rob]

Thanks for all the information. In order to get to the bottom of the problem, I really need to know if the pad is double trigging when the erratic positional sensing occurs.