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Hi Hat Artifacts: Possible Improvement?
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:20 am
by vandroiy
Hi,
I now sold my TD17 and use 2 edrumins for my A2E Set: Works amazing! I am spreading the word everyhwere I can, hoping you have success with it and can go on implementing new features or future generations of this amazing product!
Question:
There is an issue with (every) moveable HiHat, moving the sensor down when hitting the Cymbal Pad hard. The modules seem to have it covered, the VSTs I use (SD3 and SSD5.5) not.
Explanation in the vdrums forum
There is a thing: the Toontrack hihat engine "issue". Their engine lacks the option of not triggering closer stages by foot movement after open strokes. And this sometimes causes annoying artefacts when the variable hihat is set up to many open-closed-stages (ok, you might say: reduce the stages - but sometimes I want them!) :
When I close an open stroke by a relatively slow foot movement I notice that the closer articulations are triggered by the increasing CC values over the course of the closing-process. This hihat behaviour causes jittery artefacts! Noticeable more or less: depends on the hihat model and the sound-settings and of course on the foot movements. And according to which samples of the round-robin engine take effect: noticable on my audio file with 2 sequences of events triggered by the same midi data: the events at position X do not sound the same regading the jittery or shaky amount.
Almost all other drum sampler manufacturers (except StevenSlateDrums that has got the same "feature"/"issue") offer a variable hihat engine that won't trigger closer stages only by increasing CC values.
The solution is that I achieve a hihat that works like e.g. BFD2/3, AddictiveDrums2, Ableton DrumSamplers and Roland internal module sound: an open sound won't be disturbed by foot movement until the "Chick" is reached.
One user suggested:
If you play semi-open hihat patterns right on the threshold of being closed; then the force of the sticks against the trigger would be enough to briefly transmute the articulation. Hence the need of a strong spring to reduce the chance of this. So in this case, the best option would be to block all transmutes down to closed levels, leaving just the chick note (which is a separate midi event) to determine the closed position.
Do you think it would be possible and make sense to implement something like that as an option in the edrumin?
PS: What I currently do is "recude the stages", because the RHH135 is not that sensible anyway. But especially with a ATV or Roland HiHat you could really make a difference with that feature, for every VST and every DAW.
Re: Hi Hat Artifacts: Possible Improvement?
Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:45 am
by perceval
Did you download the 1.1 version update?
You might be able to fix your issue by playing with the dynamics curve of the pedal.
Quite powerful stuff there. You can really adjust the rate of opening and closing anywhere along the line.
Myself, I have a steep curve right at the beginning, to simulate what happens on a real HH when you let go of the pedal just a little to make the hats still closed but sizzle a bit. Then, later on, I make the curve more natural to work the HH gradually to full opened.
And remember, 127 is closed, so the curve will be inverted, compared to a curve for a snare hit. Had me fooled for a minute!
Re: Hi Hat Artifacts: Possible Improvement?
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:11 pm
by dsteinschneider
Hi Perceval,
Do you have your curve set like the blue dotted line in Rob's graphic?
Thanks,
Re: Hi Hat Artifacts: Possible Improvement?
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:14 pm
by perceval
Yes, that is my preference.
You can try it, but ultimately, you will adjust it to your own playing style and feel.
Re: Hi Hat Artifacts: Possible Improvement?
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:56 pm
by vandroiy
perceval wrote:Did you download the 1.1 version update?
Yes. It helps make my "reduce the stages" more efficient and also helps for VSTs that don`t have CC Controls (like EZD2, SSD5.5).
It does not solve the problem with the artifacts, though. I am not even sure edrumin can solve it or what the unwanted side effects would be, otherwise maybe Roland, Yamaha, Alesis, ATV...anybody would have done it. And they all do it in the Module, but not in MIDI for VSTs.
Re: Hi Hat Artifacts: Possible Improvement?
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:25 am
by OftheSeven
vandroiy wrote:perceval wrote:Did you download the 1.1 version update?
Yes. It helps make my "reduce the stages" more efficient and also helps for VSTs that don`t have CC Controls (like EZD2, SSD5.5).
It does not solve the problem with the artifacts, though. I am not even sure edrumin can solve it or what the unwanted side effects would be, otherwise maybe Roland, Yamaha, Alesis, ATV...anybody would have done it. And they all do it in the Module, but not in MIDI for VSTs.
Hi - I have an eDrumin unit on order and building my A2E kit to use exclusively with SD3 and SSD5.
Been reading that using an FD8 or 9 for the foot controller and crash cymbal might be a way to overcome this issue? Have you heard that? Wouldn't look as nice but might be a work around?
Re: Hi Hat Artifacts: Possible Improvement?
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:14 am
by vandroiy
OftheSeven wrote:vandroiy wrote:perceval wrote:Did you download the 1.1 version update?
Yes. It helps make my "reduce the stages" more efficient and also helps for VSTs that don`t have CC Controls (like EZD2, SSD5.5).
It does not solve the problem with the artifacts, though. I am not even sure edrumin can solve it or what the unwanted side effects would be, otherwise maybe Roland, Yamaha, Alesis, ATV...anybody would have done it. And they all do it in the Module, but not in MIDI for VSTs.
Hi - I have an eDrumin unit on order and building my A2E kit to use exclusively with SD3 and SSD5.
Been reading that using an FD8 or 9 for the foot controller and crash cymbal might be a way to overcome this issue? Have you heard that? Wouldn't look as nice but might be a work around?
That is exactly the way to overcome that and it works perfectly! Even pros like Ralf Schumacher (not the F1 Driver, the Drum Tec Drummer) use FD9 and a Cymbal Pad.
But I like that feeling of an opening HiHat very much.
Re: Hi Hat Artifacts: Possible Improvement?
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:45 am
by Rob
Can you do an audio and MIDI recording so that I know what I'm listening for so I can understand how to reproduce this 'issue' you are talking about?
Re: Hi Hat Artifacts: Possible Improvement?
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:58 am
by vandroiy
Re: Hi Hat Artifacts: Possible Improvement?
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:58 pm
by Rob
Thank-you. I think I might know what you are looking for. When the pedal is on its way down, only send the hihat position when the pedal is all the way down. Of course you would send the CC just before any hihat hits as well. Is that what you are after?