Feature request to completely disable side-stick detection/triggering

[hb1980]

Hi Rob

I think this is probably a feature request...

My use case is that I have a BT-1 for triggering side-stick (in xtalk/linked mode). As a result I set the Rimshot range as below for my snare as it never needs to detect a sidestick and this gives me really good/accurate detection of regular hits and rimshots.

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On occasions it's still possible to trigger sidestick - I caught this in the screen shot where you can see the indicator on the bottom right-hand side of the rimshot range meter. In this case the sidestick note is triggered despite there being no sidestick 'region' as such.

I also confirmed it's not because my BT1 is triggering in these cases - it's definitely picked up on the snare input.

As I have the x-stick scaler set to 1 this does result in quite a low vel output, but nonetheless it is sometimes there (and of course at the expense of not triggering a regular hit or rimshot).

Appreciate this is a bit of an edge-case, but would you consider adding the ability to completely disable sidestick detection/triggering? I'm sure a lot of people end up using BT-1 sensors where it's not needed.

On a related note.... my ATV snare came with a wooden sidestick attachment. It's completely passive but they obviously implemented something in their modules to recognise sidestick based on whatever physical changes it makes to stick impact (or some combinations of factors!) - do you know what they did and whether this could ever be replicated?

Thanks!

[Rob]

A simple fix for your situation is treat your extreme rimshot range settings as meaning 'never trigger sidstick'--I'll get that in today.

As for the add on bracket, I haven't played with it yet because like you I have a BT-1 hooked up to my ATV snare. I'm guessing it would be possible to differentiate hits on that wooden clip. That would of course make it possible to trigger an extra articulation, which would require a lot of work, especially in the UI department to support the extra notes and what not. It's not something that can be done quickly, but I'll keep it mind going forward.

[hb1980]

Perfect - thank you!!

[hb1980]

A question I've been meaning to ask in relation to side-stick...

With the BT-1 in Xtalk mode I avoid any false triggering from the snare pad, which is great, but I assume behind the scenes is a filter to ignore lower velocity hits hence the reduced dynamic range? This makes 'soft' side sticking very challenging.

In sensor mode, I get great response from the BT-1 again (full dynamics) and with the xtalk between 50 and 100 I can 100% remove false triggering from the snare pad and everything's perfect....

...Except, that means other pads cannot be played at the same time (the intro to 'Nice to Know You' by Incubus is a good stress test for this where ride and sidestick hit are accented together quite a bit!)

I'm perhaps missing a catch here but... would it be possible/make any sense to expose this setting for finer adjustment? Or have separate xtalk controls for the linked pad and 'rest of pads'?

[Rob]

With the BT-1 in Xtalk mode I avoid any false triggering from the snare pad, which is great, but I assume behind the scenes is a filter to ignore lower velocity hits hence the reduced dynamic range?

Nope, there's no filter. There is a physical membrane switch inside the BT-1 which requires a minimum amount of force to trigger.

I agree that it's difficult to trigger low.velocity hits on the BT-1 in xtalk mode, but it's not exactly bad either. Maybe there's a way to make it better. I'll put it down on my list of things to look into.

[hb1980]

[Edited...]

I think I understand now (+RTFM!) - so xtalk mode is essentially 'edge' hit detection only and this is 'as design' by Roland with no sensitivity adjustment possible?

As far as I can tell, it's taking vel > ~80 to register a hit (in the screenshot there's a hit on the left (probably about vel 80 or so) the hit isn't registered. The hit on the right is (vel 93).

If there's a way to improve on this that would be fantastic. I have no issues playing dynamically on a real snare but with the BT1 I find myself resorting to fairly hard cross stick hits all the time to avoid the embarrassment of missing one (and at the expense of my bass player complaining about dynamics in quiet breakdowns and such like

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[Rob]

So I took my BT1 off and replaced it will the wooden clip that ships with the snare. I find after adjusting my rimshot range control, I can trigger nice and dynamic crosssticks, at the expense a slightly more difficult to trigger rimshots.

Also looking at the waveform, there's a good chance that I can differentiate hits on the wooden clip and hits on the rubber padded rim. Seems reasonable in a future release there could be separate articulations for rim clicks and rimshots. It would be a lot of work, so don't expect it any time soon.

[hb1980]

Thanks Rob - no expectations here, but appreciate you giving it some consideration for a future feature.

[Edited]
Looking around I think Efnote and Gewa take the same approach as ATV for sidestick so it might benefit other users. If you decide to pursue it then happy to test.

[fg61]

[Edited...]

I think I understand now (+RTFM!) - so xtalk mode is essentially 'edge' hit detection only and this is 'as design' by Roland with no sensitivity adjustment possible?

As far as I can tell, it's taking vel > ~80 to register a hit (in the screenshot there's a hit on the left (probably about vel 80 or so) the hit isn't registered. The hit on the right is (vel 93).

If there's a way to improve on this that would be fantastic. I have no issues playing dynamically on a real snare but with the BT1 I find myself resorting to fairly hard cross stick hits all the time to avoid the embarrassment of missing one (and at the expense of my bass player complaining about dynamics in quiet breakdowns and such like


image.png

Hello, just wondering if modifying the velocity curve were able to give a little better result. I think the present setting is not the best in this case.
I'm not totally sure so could someone with more expertise give some feedback about it?

[hb1980]

Hi FG. Changing the velocity curve doesn't really help, the issue is that there's a certain amount of force needed to trigger sidestick (edge mode) on the bt1 so you lose detection of softer hits. It's more of a feel thing.

As rob mentioned for the atv snare, some clever filtering perhaps in addition to amplitude differenrential to detect the difference between rimshots/centre hits and rim clicks for this kind of setup may be possible. Then bt1 can be used in full range mode instead.

I'm not sure anyone's truelly mastered this. Even the dw-e from what I've seen relies on your palm being heavily planted on the skin to detect rim clicks.

I'd have thought the combination of filtering and having a separate trigger (bt1) could yield the best results possible with current tech. And if anyone can do it, Rob can!