Pre-Sales ? about eDRUMin + real cymbals

[kevinponeill@gmail.com]

Hi All.

I have a set of Roland pads that I currently use with an ancient TD-20. I have this kit set up with real cymbals, though - I run my TD-20 and 2 overhead mics into a small 4-channel mixer. I'd like to upgrade my sounds, as I have a buddy who'd like me to record some tracks for him, and I'm not sure how to get the cymbals into the mix / to my laptop. What I would like to do is eliminate the module, pick up a used eDRUMin 10, connect my Roland pads to it, and trigger from my laptop. Pretty straight forward, until I get to the 2 overheads for the cymbals...?

I thought that maybe I could pick up a midi audio interface with 2 XLRs for the mics and connect the eDRUMin and the interface in one way or another, then run one of them to my laptop/DAW. Is this doable in any way? If so, what would be the best option?

Appreciate any guidance/input, as I'm a total newb.

[Rob]

It's definitely doable. And whether you used real cymbals or not, you would want to good interface so that you reliable low latency audio output from your DAW. Personally I recommend replacing your real cymbals with electric ones--I love my Roland cymbals. I play on an acoustic kit
couple of times a month at a jam studio, and I often find myself wishing I had some my e-gear from home. At very least you would save yourself so much hassle and and make the mixing process so much easier.

[perceval]

But a lot of people think that real cymbals just sound and play... real.

Myself, if it wasn't for the loud noise, I'd be on a A-kit, but it's just impossible.

Plenty of people are gigging with real cymbals and real kick, but module sounds for toms and extras. Makes sense. Takes the pain of tuning toms all the time, adds sounds that would be hard to get (like gongs, etc) but keeping the impact of the kick for time keeping between members of the band, and playability of real cymbals.

For recording, I suggest to a loud rim click before starting to play, so it will be easy to align the module sounds and the live cymbals tracks. Kinda the equivalent of a movie clap.

[hang12]

To start, you could send MIDI Out from your TD-20 module, to trigger your eventual laptop set-up's drum plug-ins - or even other drum modules. Record it (the MIDI out, the TD-20 output and/or a drum plug-in’s output) along with your acoustic cymbal recordings. See what works with mix'n'match. Playing all e-pads/cyms would probably be so much easier to record than trying to blend the two worlds - but I agree it’s doable.

I have been playing my old TD-10 and TD-20 (both memory expanded) this last week via my eDRUMin’s MIDI Out and I find it kind of a welcome break from just playing the SD3 libraries. There was some interesting programming in the modules back in the day, and I also purchased a few library sets for both TD's from V Expressions Ltd, for variety sake. These older TD-XX’s are a lot more electronic than the mostly pristine SD3 offerings and the TD’s kind of complement or augment the SD3 and Battery 3&4 libs I’ve been exploring. On my (TDW-20 enhanced) TD-20 using the Tool function allows you to preview play the older default TD and TDW kits (without having to load them into regular memory) which is kind of handy to navigate quickly through ~200 programs.

I’m using two eDRUMin-10’s and in general they offer a lot more control and hence expressivity, in addition to a great interface along with problem solving features. All of my Roland cymbals now have three trigger articulations via the eDRUMin, instead of the typical bow/edge combo that is stock Roland. So the eDRUMin adds more capability, control and color, and in general the cymbals trigger very well Most of my cymbals are size CY-12 or larger. I still have two CY-8’s that I’m trying to eventually replace, and they still trigger two articulations well, but kind of so-so for 3. Three articulations is just that much better. The benefit of the eDRUMin's is you could purchase less expensive other brand cymbals, that'd probably (hopefully?) work just as well - and you could trigger the plug-in's from both the eDRUMin and Roland MIDI out's. I also use a Roland TMC-6 just for kick drum triggering, as well with the two eDrumIn-10's. It isn't all exactly plug'n'play, but I've found all this flexibility worth the time and expense.

[kevinponeill@gmail.com]

It's definitely doable. And whether you used real cymbals or not, you would want to good interface so that you reliable low latency audio output from your DAW. Personally I recommend replacing your real cymbals with electric ones--I love my Roland cymbals. I play on an acoustic kit
couple of times a month at a jam studio, and I often find myself wishing I had some my e-gear from home. At very least you would save yourself so much hassle and and make the mixing process so much easier.

Hi Rob.

Thanks for your reply. I’d go with ecymbals, but I have none, and they’re expensive. I already have 6 high quality cymbals (7, if you count the hi hats as two) that I love, and my friend loves the way they sound, too, so rather than buy several ecymbals that could afford me the expressiveness of my real cymbals and tinker with their sounds post-production to try and get a sound that we both already like…AND spend all of the cash on ecymbals that I don’t have (hah)…doesn’t make sense for me and my situation right now. Plus, I have 6 Roland pads (snare, kick, and four toms), so even if I decided to go with ecymbals, I have no idea how I would get my 6 pads + 6 cymbals connected to my TD-20 while maintaining all features of all the pads (zones, etc.).

If I could get my hands on two eDRUMit 10s, I would consider going with ecymbals down the road, but I hear supplies are very limited.

[hang12]

[…doesn’t make sense for me and my situation right now. Plus, I have 6 Roland pads (snare, kick, and four toms), so even if I decided to go with ecymbals, I have no idea how I would get my 6 pads + 6 cymbals connected to my TD-20 while maintaining all features of all the pads (zones, etc.).

Sorry if I misunderstood anything. I love the sound of good acoustic cymbals - my favorite part of the kit.
The TD-20 will not be triggered by audio signals. Nor will the eDRUMin.
Pads connect easily to the 15 trigger inputs on the TD-20 - one each, individually labelled, for the snare, kick and four toms, which in turn triggers the internal sound engine in the TD-20.
The eDRUMin does not have an internal sound engine. but it does a great job of processing triggers from pads - far better/easier than the TD-20, IMO.
The metal acoustic cymbals could/would need to be tracked separately, alongside with the TD-20 output tracks - and/or maybe you can get an adequate sound out of the whole electro-acoustic drum kit combo, live.

[kevinponeill@gmail.com]

[…doesn’t make sense for me and my situation right now. Plus, I have 6 Roland pads (snare, kick, and four toms), so even if I decided to go with ecymbals, I have no idea how I would get my 6 pads + 6 cymbals connected to my TD-20 while maintaining all features of all the pads (zones, etc.).

Sorry if I misunderstood anything. I love the sound of good acoustic cymbals - my favorite part of the kit.
The TD-20 will not be triggered by audio signals. Nor will the eDRUMin.
Pads connect easily to the 15 trigger inputs on the TD-20 - one each, individually labelled, for the snare, kick and four toms, which in turn triggers the internal sound engine in the TD-20.
The eDRUMin does not have an internal sound engine. but it does a great job of processing triggers from pads - far better/easier than the TD-20, IMO.
The metal acoustic cymbals could/would need to be tracked separately, alongside with the TD-20 output tracks - and/or maybe you can get an adequate sound out of the whole electro-acoustic drum kit combo, live.

No worries. I get that the eDRUMin doesn't produce audio. If they were available, I'd like to get an eDRUMin 10, connect my Roland pads to it, use that to trigger from a VST, and run my overheads and eDRUMin into a quality audio interface connected to my laptop. Record everything into the daw at once.

[jacko]

if i understood the question correctly ...

with a focusrite 6i6, and logic, you can:

focusrite to computer by usb

eDRUMin to focusrite by MIDI cable

two mics into focusrite

record midi from drums on one track, and record cymbals through mics on two audio tracks, all simultaneously

would be possible with other daw / interface combinations too, but don't just assume that every interface has a MIDI-in port (they don't), nor that every DAW can do this (they might but i don't know)

it takes a bit of setting up in logic but i worked out how to do something essentially equivalent between Google and YouTube so I'm sure anyone can

[hang12]

so even if I decided to go with ecymbals, I have no idea how I would get my 6 pads + 6 cymbals connected to my TD-20 while maintaining all features of all the pads (zones, etc.). If I could get my hands on two eDRUMit 10s, I would consider going with ecymbals down the road, but I hear supplies are very limited.

You haven't mentioned what type Roland pads you have. If they are the stock older rubber pads you could double up on the eDRUMin trigger inputs - I am using four of the older pads in that manner on my kit, 2 each connected with Y cables. Triggers the center and the rim. I also use a number of mesh pads but the mesh pads are not doubled up - just straight up TRS into a single input. This dedicated TRS input triggers center and rim, but offers positional possibilities, which came in handy for me for a second snare, as well as offering standard rim shot vs side stick (rim click) differentiation via the threshold adjustment for the toms. If you're triggering the TD-20 Toms from external MIDI, having that extra differentiation probably won't matter, because a lot or most of the Tom sounds available don't have both rim click and rim shot - at least that I've found that are easily accessible. Someone else may correct me on this point(?)...

For the short term an eDRUMin4 might cover your current trigger situation, if you choose not to use the TD-20 as a trigger interface for MIDI-out to your laptop. You can also grow into the system, using a combination of the TD-20 and eDRUMin4 as triggers. The only situation I would advise against is putting too many MIDI in's to MIDI out's in a serial fashion, due to inherent MIDI messaging delays. Such as - if you are trying to record and capture MIDI notes, CC's, etc - triggering using the TD-20 in local off, its MIDI out into the computer, and then back out again into the TD-20's MIDI in, for like a real time monitoring set-up. The MIDI out to in to out has a definite lag that makes it not very useful.

[jacko]

if i understood the question correctly ...

with a focusrite 6i6, and logic, you can:

focusrite to computer by usb

eDRUMin to focusrite by MIDI cable

two mics into focusrite

record midi from drums on one track, and record cymbals through mics on two audio tracks, all simultaneously

would be possible with other daw / interface combinations too, but don't just assume that every interface has a MIDI-in port (they don't), nor that every DAW can do this (they might but i don't know)

it takes a bit of setting up in logic but i worked out how to do something essentially equivalent between Google and YouTube so I'm sure anyone can

of course, you can also go:

interface to computer by usb

eDRUMin to computer by usb

everything else the same

then you don't need to worry about getting an interface with a MIDI in port